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EXCLUSIVE!
Interview with Deborah
Fraser
Susan
Atkins ' Attorney (1988-1995)
  
Q: Hello Deborah. I wanted to ask you
about how you became Susan's attorney and what your experience in hindsight
is?
I don't quite know what to say or how to
respond to
your e-mail. It has been a very long time
since I
represented Ms. Atkins, the last time
being at her
1993 parole hearing. Thus, it's been
almost 14 years
by my reckoning. I have since retired
from law
practice having done my duty in the
service of others
and am now enjoying other interests as
far outside of
the legal profession as I can possibly
get.
Alas, I see that a choice I made in my
early career,
(young, desirous of fame and fortune,
full of myself
and enormous enthusiasm)has, and most
likely will,
follow me for the rest of my days. I was
offered the
representation of Ms. Atkins by the
California Parole
Board in 1988, and seeing all the
potential upside,
jumped at the chance.
What never occurred to me in my silly,
short-sided
youth, is all the downside of such a
choice. It's much
like winning the lottery...all you see is
the money
and what kind of opportunity, access and
resources it
will buy. What you don't see is the
abandonment of all
your friends, the changes it makes in
you, and the
corruption such "luck" can
bring...until you are spent
and perhaps, far wiser.
This is not to say that representing Ms.
Atkins has
done nothing but brought me grief. On the
contrary, it
has brought me a rather interesting life,
to say the
least. It seems that, for a horrible
murder that
occurred so long ago, Charlie Manson has
gotten more
and more famous and popular, not less.
You'd think by
now that he would have faded away. But
not so! And,
truly I stand absolutely amazed.
Let me ask you this, Mr. Gudjonsson, why
on this good
green earth would you ever want to host a
website on
this subject? This is not a criticism. I
am honestly
curious. This whole affair is just
amazing. It seems
an entire industry has sprung up around
these crimes.
Be that as it may, I'm sure you'd like my
insight on
these matters, as best as my recollection
will allow.
To that end, I will answer your questions
as best I
can. But please understand, for this
horrible turn of
fate, of events and circumstances, to
have achieved
this level of infamy without the shred of
possibility
of dying out in my lifetime, it simply means
that
there
exists a deep well of lessons to me mined from
that tragedy. And so, with my answers to
your
questions will also come what wisdom and
understanding
I have gleaned from this rather
fortuitous
relationship.
Deborah today as she works as a professional
chef.
Q: I know you had a working relationship
with Bill Nelson at one point and helped him get an interview with Susan.
Bill was very controversial and made a lot of enemies. Since his death in
2005 he's been all but forgotten. What were your impressions of Bill? Did
you know him well or stay in contact with him or his wife throughout the
years?
I'm rather blown away at
the moment to learn that Bill Nelson
died. Do you know
how he died? And when? I'm rather
stunned.
Q: I believe he died as a result of his
diabetics condition and complications of a surgery although I'm not
positive. I didn't know him that well. He died in 2005.
What can you tell me about Bill?
But first, I’d like to talk about
Bill Nelson. I’m afraid my opinion of Bill was not as kind as yours
although I was not one of his enemies. I came to the sad conclusion that
Bill was a nut case and, if one was not careful, a very dangerous person. I
decided to gracefully keep my distance.
You see, somewhere along Bill’s
strange and twisted life, he got obsessed with the Manson case; very
obsessed. I would say to the point where even the smallest, most
insignificant detail held deep fascination for him. I don’t recall
him every having a regular job earning a living. I don’t recall him
ever having a regular business to earn a living. All I remember is the only thing he every
worked on with passion, obsession, and single-mindedness of purpose was
this case. I don’t know how he paid his bills. I suppose his
long-suffering wife worked, poor thing. They were just a strange lot.
Bill had a tendency to exaggerate,
embellish, and lie like a dog when it served his purpose. He was also a
keen manipulator, sucking personal information out of people then using it
against them. He would pretend to be your friend, and then turn on you. I have no idea what he ever wrote about
me and I don’t really care. It was one of those situations that if he
said something nasty and you sued for libel, he’d get all the
attention he could ever want. Either way you’d lose. For Bill, the
attention was everything. Being around famous and infamous people, being on
television, the radio, anything that would bring him some notoriety. He
loved the fact he had enemies. Only people with any kind of power have
enemies. And that’s what Bill really wanted. Power above all else.
If what you tell me is true, that
Bill’s wife had finally had enough of all this Manson stuff and she
had threatened to leave him, well then his death comes as no surprise. Once
he sold all his stuff he had nothing
to live for. There wasn’t any reason to get up in the morning. No
more adventures for Bill. And, he died exactly how he feared he would: in
obscurity.
I hope Bill’s fate is not chasing
you. Be careful. This case holds much evil and people’s lives tend to
go awry when you spend too much time with it. Nothing good every came out of this case
for anybody.
About Susan
Regarding Susan Atkins: You ask many questions that I feel are
somehow tied together in fragments. Perhaps an overall impression would
help.
I never felt that Susan was psychotic or
sociopathic in all the years I knew her. As for her being
manipulative…well, who the hell isn’t in this day and age? And
how do you expect to survive 30 plus years in prison? Being nice will only get your butt
kicked. I mean let’s ask this question: what does being manipulative
really mean? Does it not imply
getting what you need or want through indirect means? When you are in
prison, manipulation becomes a fine art. Manipulation is a survival tactic.
At the time of the murders Susan and her
buddies were all drug addicts.
You’ve got to examine the kind of life they were living out at
that ranch. They hardly got any food, they hardly got any sleep, and they
were partying all night on drugs, having sex with everybody and everything.
They were dropping acid like M&M’s, smoking pot, taking
pills. And these kids were fucked up
before they met Charlie. So, it’s not too far a leap to figure where
this disaster is headed. This is a prescription for brain-washing. It
really doesn’t take much to break people down…just ask the US
Government.
Q: What did you think of Susan's many
versions of crime and constantly changing her story and do you feel she had
a tendency to portray herself as a victim?
As for Susan changing her
story…come on. Could you live with that night forever in your dreams?
Every time you closed your eyes, when it was dark and quiet in the
compound, whose screams do you hear?
Who could live with that? At
some psychological level she would make every effort to distance herself
from that night as a means to survive. It’s normal. You see the same
thing in traumatized war vets.
As for her being a victim, I didn’t
buy that. We all make choices in this life and every choice we make comes
with consequences, good or bad. She was headed down the wrong path long
before she ever met Charlie. This was someone who has have never made good
choices. Probably because there were never any good choice to make.
Q: Did you ever caught Susan in a lie of
some sort?
You need to understand that as a criminal
defense attorney you expect your clients to lie. You also expect the cops
to lie. In fact, you pretty much expect everyone to lie. The real question
is…what does the evidence say? To be honest with you, if Susan
hadn’t said anything to anybody, this would still be an unsolved
murder. Often, I think time and
distance, desire, hope and what have you, distorts everyone’s story.
Sometimes you just wish the past were somehow different. Ergo, I
didn’t feel she was being untruthful. I did feel that this whole mess
created a huge wound and she was having a hard time dealing with it. Who
wouldn’t?
Q: Could you elaborate on what Mr. Nelson
wrote in his book when the two of you were at the Tate house guest house
late at night with Lisa Statma, when Nelson writes that you suddenlyu
realized that Susan stabbed Sharon Tate and quoted you as saying, "She
fucking did it!" ??
I didn’t “suddenly realized
that Susan stabbed Sharon Tate”, per the hyperbole of Mr. Nelson.
Long before Mr. Nelson, I had read Helter Skelter and The Family. Again,
it’s about what the evidence says…and Susan confessed to murder
in front of a Grand Jury. Game over.
Q: What was you impression of Susan's
husband, Mr. Whithouse?
As far as Mr. Whitehouse is concerned.
Interesting fellow. When I met him he was young and very much in love with
his wife. He wanted to help her. I understand he graduated top of his class
at UC Irvine and then went on to Harvard Law School. I knew that one day I would be handing
her case over to him. He was dedicated to her. Loved her with all his
heart. He may or may not be a good attorney I don’t know. All I know
is that the deck is stacked against him no matter what and she is never
going to get out. Ever. She has become a political prisoner…it would
be political suicide to even consider her for parole. Same with Leslie and
Patricia and all the rest.
Q: Why did you part ways with Susan?
My involvement with Susan ended in 1996.
I was living in New York City at the time and on in-active status with the
State Bar of California. It would have cost me well over $1000.00 to fly
out and represent her, reactivate my license, etc. At that point I decided
that it was time to let Susan go for my own peace of mind. And so, they
appointed a public defender for that hearing. The following year her
husband took over. The rest is history.
I know that people want to think that
Susan is a monster. That she was a crazy psycho monster then and still is
today. I don’t believe that and never have. Do I think she’d
kill again? No. But for some reason this is her karma in this life. And
sometimes there’s just nothing you can do about that.
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Q: Hi Deb.
Sorry for the late response. I had to go
to London for a few days.
I appreciate your thoughts and insights
and I tend to agree with many of the points you have raised. Your insights
and responses and certainly thought provoking.
A: How was London? Hope your trip went
well. I appreciate
your thoughts as well.
Q: I assume you got to meet Leslie Van
Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel during visitation with Susan. Is Susan close
to any of them
As for Leslie...I only met her once and
liked her.
She's very intelligent, articulate, and,
considering
her circumstances, she's made the best of
a bad
situation. I consider her courageous and
often hope
that one day someone will let her go.
Q: Do you think Susan or the others have
any remote possibility to get released?
The situation in California is that the
Governor has
the final ok to let anyone out on parole.
The parole
board may make their recommendations
based on certain
criteria, but in the end, it is the
Governor who makes
the final decision.
It was not always this way. What happened
was that at
some point the parole board released the
"Onion Field
Killer" and a hell-storm broke
loose. I do not
remember the perp's name (Jimmy
something, I think),
but you can google "The Onion
Field" and obtain more
information. Apparently, if I remember
the story
right, two perps kidnapped a couple of LA
cops, drove
them to Bakersfield and shot them in an
onion field.
Hence, the name.
Well, one of the guys was up for parole
and had done
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